Leafar versus lilachamster

Come on lilachamster, where are you?

Lets see if you can handle a real debate.

Whether I can or not does not make me wrong!
It is obvious that you are nothing but a common bully, the fact that you admitted going to pubs and smoking in spite of the fact that there might be asthma sufferers there thinking they can be safe now it is banned!
You are a highly selfish and irresponsible individual.

Ok rodent, the first thing id like to address is this :

You have stated that you lost a taxi driver his job. Your reason was that he somehow made you ill. You also said that (and im just paraphrasing) he was some kind of sex offender or something to that effect.

You also appear to generally see smokers as people who deliberately go out of their way to be inconsiderate. Perhaps you imagine that they wake up every day with the agenda of persecuting you.

You have also stated that you had wished for your mother to get some kind of smoking related disease. Do correct me if ive got that wrong.


Facts :

1 - The taxi driver did not make you ill. What made you ill was the circumstances of you and him being in close proximity while he smoked, added to the fact that you seem to be very sensitive to smoke (something which the world is not reponsible for, only you are - its YOUR issue - OWN it)

2 - The fact that he may have been a sex offender is neither here nor there, and your attempt to connect being a sex offender with being a smoker is in poor taste.

3 - The world generally doesnt care about your existence. Most people are too busy minding their own business and that of those they are close with to take any notice of you, unless you interact with them. The same applies to me, and anyone else. Smokers are not after you.

4 - The fact (again, tell me if ive got this wrong) that you wished for your mother to get a disease is something that could be understood, considering how sensitive you are to smoke and your relationship with her which we dont really know anything about. However, it is extreme, and it signals to anyone who hears you say that, that you are not in a position to judge things / life clearly. You obviously have issues. I suggest you seek help and i mean that in a nice way. The very fact that you often mention it sounds like a cry for help.

Im sure there are people here, myself included, who would be happy to reach out and lend an ear (despite everything), but we will never do that if you attack us.


Given the the above facts, which you simply cannot dispute.....


How is anybody supposed to take you seriously when it is clear that :


You are utterly incapable of taking responsibility for yourself

You are desperate to connect smoking to being a sex offender

You are apparently delusional with regard to the concept that smokers are actually out to get you

You have issues with your mother which clearly cloud your judgment

?

It was not the taxi driver who was the sex offender, but the owner/director of the coach company whose driver smoked in a coach I was traveelling on last weekend. The two incidents were several years apart.
I am not accusing the driver of being a sex offender, simply making a point that the company is full of unsavoury characters.
The owner of the company was convicted of offences related to child porn.
All I know about the driver is that he is utterly selfish in his smoking behaviour and breaks the law regularly (3 times in the one day that I am aware of).

I do take a great deal of responsibility for my own health, for many years I would always phone up a coach company if I was due to travel on their coach, to check on them having a strict no smoking policy. If they did not, I did not go on their coach quite simply. Since the ban I felt I was protected as all coach companies have to be strictly smoke-free now. Do you think it is acceptable that the driver smoked on the coach after the ban? I know how you feel about pubs, do you really feel the same about coaches too?

I did not wish my mother to get a disease but warned her many times that it was likely to happen.

I do not think smokers are out to get me, but I do believe that many smokers are unaware or uncaring about the effect of their behaviour on other people, especially children.

Ok, so the taxi driver wasnt a sex offender. It was the owner of the coach company. But that doesnt change the fact that you are still somehow trying to make a connection between smoking and things that seriously are unsavoury. Again, poor taste. By even mentioning it, it is clear that you are trying to make the connection.

You have to realise that every single person in this world has a reason for doing everything that they do. For all you know, he could simply have smoked in his taxi in protest at a law that he finds deeply unfair. You may disagree with him and believe that it isfair, but my point is that you need to understand that there are people who resent certain laws. To be honest with you i do think that he should have at least asked you if you minded him smoking, but you should try to understand where other people coming from, because soon ther ewill be laws that you disagree with and then you will begin to see a bigger picture.

You come across as very bitter but i understand where youre coming from, despite the fact that im in total opposition to your views. You should learn to try to put your own feelings aside for long enough to understand why other people do things. For example, i disagree with animal right protestors killing people, but if they do, i understand why, even though i may disagree with it. Open your mind and see things from other peoples point of view.

When i say take responsiblity, im referring to the fact that you paint a picture of smokers as selfish, because you do not feel capable of saying to yourself "you know what, maybe its me sometimes, maybe my personal resentment is clouding my judgment". You seriously have issues. Get over them, and see things for what they are.

Did you wish for your mother to get a disease? Were you glad when she did?

Do you believe that when a person starts smoking, something happens inside them that turns them into selfish people? Or, do you believe that smoking is an activity that attracts people who are already selfish?

I believe that addiction makes people selfish, and smoking is a strong addiction.

I also believe that unsavoury, dishonest, even violent characters are more likely to smoke. This has on the whole been my experience. It was always the badly behaved kids at school that smoked, this has not changed in the last generation or two, it's still the ones with a bad attitude that take up the habit.

Look at the man shot dead by a smoker in a bar and the lady pushed onto railway tracks for standing up to smokers, you NEVER hear of any anti-smokers being seriously violent to smokers, really you never do.

The taxi incident was before the law change, so it was not a protest at the law. He knew he was picking me up from the maternity dept of the hospital and almost anyone would agree that smoking in a taxi was inappropriate in those circumstances.

As for the coach driver, this was long after the new law came in, it was only last weekend, actually it was a coach going to an animal rights protest.

No animal rights protestors kill people on purpose, the huge majority of us are non-violent. I assume you refer to the recent case with the gyrocopter which was clearly a tragic accident. I have it on good authority (I know someone who knows the men involved) that the hunt supporter came rushing at the gyrocopter, while people were shouting at him to stop. Basically he was in a mad frenzy because these people in the gyrocopter had been monitoring the hunt's illegal activity, and he ran right into the blade that decapitated him. I was quite upset too reading about it but at least it was a quicker and far more humane death than animals in slaughterhouses and hunted for sport suffer, and he did cause it himself by running at the copter when he could see it was moving.

I am not glad my mother got a disease, I would prefer for her to have quit while I was still young so as to do us both less damage.

Please believe me that whether or not a person becomes addicted to smoking depends on that person themselves, and their psychology. Im telling you that as a smoker who knows. You dont smoke, so really youre not in a position to know this. For example, some people, if they cant find their cigarettes, they get cranky. Ive been smoking for years, and if i cant find mine, i get about as annoyed as i would if i cant find anything else (ie, anywhere between not at all and somewhat annoyed). Also, if i dont have access to cigarettes, it barely even occurs to me until the end of the day, and i dont miss them. If dont have money to buy any, ill be slightly annoyed and minutes later ive forgotten all about it. I can also go for days without smoking without being in the slightest bit bothered. Everyone is different. So if you want to talk about addiction you need to know what youre talking about, and with respect, i know more about this than you do.

If smoking makes certain people selfish, its because that particular person is dependant on smoking for any number of reasons and also happens to be selfish. But like i say, everyone is different. Also remember that for many people who are "addicted" to smoking, this doesnt manifest as selfisness. You have got to start thinking about being accurate when you make your unfounded claims, and not rely just on personal experience.

Very often, badly behaved kids and those with bad attitudes grow up to be extremely creative and open minded people who are great in social situations. And guess what, some smoke, and some do not.

Youre making assumptions about literally hundreds upon hundreds of millions of people on this earth, and thats not cool. Its also not correct. Its actually very juvenile and childish. Adolf Hitler didnt smoke (although he is responsible for the first major anti smoking movement of the last century), and look at what he did. Does this mean that all or even most non smokes are evil? Not at all, so if you want to give silly examples in an attempt to prove that smoking and bandess go hand in hand, i can also go down the opposite route and make silly connections between not smoking and being evil. Do you really want to waste time doing that?

Ok, that taxi driver, because he knew that you were pregnant, and because he didnt even ask i he could smoke, is a good example of a PERSON being selfish. Now what you need to do is refrain from connecting what he did (smoke) with selfishness. If he had done something else that was selfish instead of smoke, would you connect it with selfishness? Im sure you wouldnt. Im sure youd just say "that PERSON was being selfish" and leave it at that. You ve got to stop this habit of yours of connecting smoking with selfishness. Its getting silly.

Theres no need for you to explain anything about animal rights protestors. I was merely illustrating my point that you need to undestand where people are coming from. But...regarding the taxi driver, youre totally correct to say that he was selfish. I can see that now. Just dont associate it with the specific thing that he was doing.

Now, you said yesterday that im a selfish person, etc. This is how i behave in relation to smoking :

- If someone comes to my house and i dont know if they smoke or not, ill ask if they mind before i spark up. If they do mind, ill ask if i can do it and open a window. If they still mind, ill ask if its ok if i smoke but just not in the room that we're in. If they still mind, i wont smoke inside. I do this out of consideration, despite the fact that i have the right to do just as i please. However...if at any time that person has an attitude with me and acts like they own the place and have a right to dictate to me what i can and cant do (in other words, if they dont appreciate my courtesy), i will smoke in their face, or throw them out. I think thats about as fair as it can get. And im sure youll agree.

- If im in a pub smoking and i get the feeling that the person im with minds the smoke, ill put my ashtray on a table behind me and smoke that way, no matter how silly i look.

Go on, tell me again that im selfish. And no, im not a rare exception.

By the way, if there is a law that says that smoking is banned in all pubs, and i find myself in a pub that ignores this law, are you actually aware that every single person there would be completely aware of this? Your earlier point that im selfish because i smoke around others in pubs is redundant because everyone knows that theyre in a place that flouts the law. It is also redundant even without a smoking ban due to the fact that for hundreds of years people smoked in pubs and everyone got along quite nicely.


Im beginning to regard our conversation more as a chat now than as an argument. Dont spoil this nice little vibe that we've now got.

As you (everyone) will be aware, on this forum, the admin and moderators not only moderate the forum, but we also play the role of referee in debates. With that in mind :

Interesting points raised by leafar. What say you, lilachamster?

Yes, what say you?

Yes agreed, we are being more civil now Leafar.

I know some smokers are not addicted to smoking one after another, but are more addicted in a way that shows itself at certain times such as when they are drinking. Still it is usually an addiction.

I don't agree with you about badly behaved kids, they are often the ones who do not have any idea what is socially acceptable (probably because they are brought up with no boundaries or consistent rules and discipline by their parents) and end up getting ASBOs and into trouble with the law.

I've had enough bad experiences to connect smoking with selfishness, I cannot ignore those experiences totally. People who have prejudices usually have a reason why they have developed those prejudices.

Yes you do sound more considerate than some smokers, even in your home, what a shame more smokers are not considerate.

Smoking in the pub though is out of order. It is probably not you who would face punishment but the landlord for a start so you are getting someone else into trouble.

I also do not believe that everyone in said pub would be aware that the law is going to be ignored in there, as some people might not be regulars. It sounds like it is run more like a private club than a pub if this is the case, but you cannot just assume.

I do not agree that everyone got along nicely before the ban, maybe on the face of it, but I can tell you that many of us did not go into pubs or when we did go in occasionally we resented having to be around smoke.

So lets establish what we agree on :

Smokers are real people (we all know smokers) who one can get on with, and there is nothing about being a non smoker that makes someone better in any way.

Smoking is addictive to some people, and not others. I put it to you that mostly it is genuinely something that people do because they enjoy it, and not because they are trapped in some cycle of addiction. Seriously, tobacco is very mild (as is alcohol. Most drinkers are regular, non violent people). You may disagree, but you must admit that as a smoker i do know what it feels like to smoke a cigarette and not be addicted. And im not that special, im hardly a minority in that sense.

Some smokers are inconsiderate, and some are not. I put it to you that it depends entirely on their personality, just like drinking, and i also put it to you that there is nothing about smoking that makes people selfish or whatever. You keep mentioning personal experiences but when you go through life with a fixed belief system, you will inevitably see things in a certain way, and you will also be somewhat determined to defend that belief system by refusing to acknowledge that you may very well be wrong on many occasions. Open your mind. You admit that you have prejudices, now is the time to re evaluate them. They are, after all, pre - judgements.

Now lets do this...

I totally sympathise with you because of your health issues. I understand your anger, and i even understand why you give smokers dirty looks. I think thats wrong, and anti social, but i get it.

Now its your turn to see my point of view. This should be interesting.

[I hope you realise that it is easy to have a civilized conversation with any smoker. All you have to do is drop your guard and hear what they say and make an effort to step out of your zone. Its actually really basic, common sense stuff what smokers say. You might surprise yourelf).

Actually you are right, I can be civil with some smokers, but the smokers I could not have a conversation with are the parents who smoke in their cars with their kiddies, I'd like to know your take on that, I consider it a pretty nasty form of abuse, as it is a slow way of killing them or making them chronicly ill (as happened to me)

"My intolerance is of behaviour that makes me ill"

"If someone is a smoker but not doing it near me I am perfectly decent to them (even though they actually often stink like stale piss)"

"I (usually) have no problem now as an adult moving away from smokers outdoors (I do move away from them at bus stops and sometimes give them a bit of a dirty look)"

Take a good look at these quotes from you. You are painting smokers as evil simply because their smoke happens to make you ill, instead of considering that they do not know that you are so affected. You accuse smokers of stinking like stale piss when perhaps you are unwittingly snorting stale piss every morning and thats why it seem that way to you, or maybe your prejudices (which you admitted and we have it on record) are causing you to imagine that they smell of stale piss. I have never in my life come across a smoker who smells of stale piss, or any other kind of piss, hence my theory. And of course there you are saying that you engage in the anti social act of giving a complete stranger a dirty look. You should be ashamed of yourself. Imagine if a kind person (who happens to smoke) was with you at a bus stop and noticed that you werent looking too well, and they were just about to ask if youre ok and you give them a dirty look. How ironic to think that that person would have certainly done whatever they can to accommodate you. You are selfish. You are so selfish that when you read my words saying "you are selfish" you immediate move the blame from yourself and focus on the imagined selfishness of others. Look at yourself.

Imagine that you were a smoker, and you were willing to move heaven and earth to believe that lilachamster cares about all her fellow humans, and then you read the above quotes. Youd be like "what the fuck?"


Parents smoking in their own property? I think its absolutely fine. Oh, right, you meant with kids there. Yes thats fine too, if the kid doesnt mind. The kid has a mouth, they can talk and say that they mind. Its none of the state's business. Guess what, my dad smoked (and presumably still does), and heres what i thought and still think of him : Selfish, never considered when i told him that his smoke bothered me, and now i thank my lucky stars that i havent become one of those people who judge every smoker to be the same. Nasty form of abuse, oh please, stop being so melodramatic. The world doesnt revolve around your personal experiences. Just open a damn window, or get a relationship that includes communication with whoevers driving, or get out of the car. Geez. The nanny state loves people like you, get a backbone and learn to politely be assertive and speak up without giving strangers dirty looks. And if you cant do that, look at yourself in the mirror and say to yourself "its my problem, i need to learn to communicate politely and effectively with others. Smokers arent out to kill me, they just like a smoke".

Youre so paranoid, just get over it. Make friends with smokers, go ahead and disagree with their smoking with a vengeance, go on knock yourself out, have a bit of a nag at them you want, but dont spoil relationships with people who fro all you know could become some of the nicest people you could meet, yes, imperfections and all.

Don't be ridiculous, small children can't do anything about it if they are exposed to smoke and some parents just don't care as they care about their addiction more than whether their children mind it (as you know from your experience).
Actually if your dad's smoke really had bothered you very much, you would never have become a smoker yourself. If you did not like it why did you take it up? It's obvious that it bothered me a LOT more than it did you, if it was as distressing and painful for you as for me then you would never have smoked.
I simply never could have done, even quite a small amount of smoke is so painful and yes I do mean it is actually painful, whether you believe me or not, that is how it feels to me. Abuse if the state's business and I hope it will soon be considered abuse to smoke around children.

Small kids cant do much at all, true, but parents who care about them (ie the vast majority) are capable of working something out so that tey can still smoke but not anywhere and not all the time. You dont have much faith in humans being able to figure out solutions to their dilemmas, do you? You actually think that parents who smoke are so uncontrollably addicted that they cant wait until the kid is gone. Yes, there are some who cant, but its you who is being ridiculous if yout think that the vast majority of smoking parents (especially in this and age) would blow smoke in their kids faces.

Again, youre taking a minority and making out that most smokers are the same. You said yourself that you are prejudiced. This means that you pre judge things.

No, smoke doesnt bother me (or the vast majority of non smokers) anywhere as much as it does you. In other words, you are in a minority, even among non smokers. So yet again, youre taking a minority and blowing it ouf of proportion. According to you, most smokers are inconsiderate, and most non smokers are ultra sensitive and super resentful about smoke.

Again, i have to laugh every time you say abuse. There are so many grey areas but youre not willing to look at them because you like to see everything in black and white.



But more to the point, youve completely sidestepped all my other points.



Do you not agree that you are prejudiced?

Dont you agree that your attitude to smokers is (as a result of your admitted prejudice) not very nice?

Dont you see that your prejudice makes you judge everything only on your personal experiences, rather than the experience of all people as a whole?

Dont you think its about time that you began thinking more like this...

God i hate smoke, i dont know why they do it, i cant stand it, they should all quit, etc etc etc etc etc...BUT, i believe in choice, i believe that all people are probably quite nice to know, and i should get to know them DESPITE their flaws

?

I do occasionally become on friendly terms with considerate smokers actually, you are making a lot of judgements about me without knowing me (seems I am not the only one to do that). Not those who smoke with kids in their car though, that is just too unacceptable!

Of course i dont know very much about you, but im choosing my assumptions about you based on your own words, am i not?

Based on the fact that you havent answered what i asked in my last post, and based on the fact that it looks like you may perhaps be starting to question yourself, im going to make these assumptions, and its up to you to disagree (thats my disclaimer) :

You do admit that you are prejudiced about most smokers based on your own personal experiences, and that it has snowballed into your current views. You do admit that youre unnecessarily (lets say more often than not, for arguments sake) not very nice to smokers. And you are starting to think that maybe you should change your attitude to one where yes you do hate smoking but youre willing to see smokers as regular people despite the fact that they do something that you strongly disapprove of (im smoking now and i love it, but i do care for little creatures and when i see a bug in my bath i always save it).

Its not like i have a problem admitting that some smokers are inconsiderate (but only because thats their nature anyway), including parents. And unlike a lot of smokers i dont mind non smokers nagging me to stop. When they do it i just sigh and say "yeah youre right".

Theres nothing wrong with admitting your mistakes and errors in judgment. Why not be one of those non smokers who hates smoking but is ok with smokers? I think it would be great if you became that kind of non smoker. Just drop the prejudice and make some friends. It might take a while but its doable. It would be a far cry from the destructiveness and negativity of the filthy smokers forum.

Yes, i do realise that there are particular issues about smoking, but im talking generally.

?

Actually I mostly avoid rows with smokers, just move away usually if it's a bus stop or anywhere outside, I think they might sometimes know why they are being avoided, and I hope they do know. It's only when they actually break the law such as in the recent incident with the coach driver that I feel able to stand up for myself, and even now I do not do this directly to the smoker usually because I have been on the receiving end of aggression from smokers so many times. I prefer not to have to deal with aggressive people. Once I was punched in the face just for speaking up to a smoker in a chinese takeaway, and that was not even the smoker himself, he got a woman to do his dirty work for him, then they ran off before I could defend myself.

I admit I find it hard not to hate aggressive and inconsiderate smokers and especially those who smoke in their cars and other indoor places around children, who often can't speak up. I avoid having anything to do with parents who smoke in their cars with their kids. If they smoke in thier own car with a consenting adult but are wiling not to smoke if it is a problem for the other person, I have less of a problem with them. I will probably always look down on anyone who smokes around children, this is just totally unacceptable as far as I am concerned and a form of child cruelty.

I know a lot of people who smoke and are nice to animals, even others who like me are vegan or vegetarian, and so long as they do not hurt me with their smoke I am OK with them, but would avoid going to the house of a person I knew smoked in their house.

You actually sound like less of an aggressive smoker than a lot of them. Unfortunately I have become very defensive about dealing with smokers in real life, even fearful, because of the very nasty ones I have encountered.

So what do you hope to achieve when you walk away from a smoker at a bus stop? And do you think youll ever achieve it? If not, why not?

And what do you hope to achieve by giving them dirty looks? And do you think youll ever achieve it? If not, why not? Could it be down to your attitude?

Why do you think that you, a person who gives smokers dirty looks and calls them names, receives aggression from smokers, whereas other people dont? Is it because of your attitude?

Are you prejudiced (therefore often wrong) about smokers?

Are you beginning to think that you should start changing your attitude?

Are you a self righteous snob? If not, explain.

Are you a hypocrite for only being concerned with lawbreakers who personally affect you?



By the way may i remind you of something which you already know. It is me who decided to turn this conversation into a civil one, by showing that i understand where youre coming from. If we ever stood at a bus stop and i sparked up and you gave me a dirty look and then i had a go at you, and you came here to tell me what happened and then you realised that it was me, how would you feel? Wouldnt you feel foolish? Wouldnt just that simple scenario make a complete mockery of your attitude? Wouldnt it make you realise that you are the cause of the aggression that you get, and that most smokers, let me rephrase that, most people, dont appreciate self righteous snobs looking down their snotty little noses at them for whatever reason, and that those very same smokers would happily be civil (even nice) to you as long as you show them some respect and understanding (just as i have shown to you, and might i add, with zero actual reason to)?

What im trying to get you to understand is that you bring it all on yourself. So youre sensitive to smoke. Live with it. Its your thing, its your cross to bear. Patronise smokers, look down on them, ostracise them, go ahead, but the result will be a miserable life for you. Its bad enough that youre sensitive to smoke, but thats not good enough for you, you just cant resist blaming the world. No wonder you see smokers as evil, you reap what you sow. You can sit there and make every excuse under the sun about how smokers are bogeymen out to get you, or you can take some damn responsibility and accept that unfortunately you have to live a life where youre careful about where you go. Lets face it, you need all the friends and sympathy you can get, and right now youre making enemies of perfectly decent people.

What an example you would be to antis if you dropped all this nonsense and said "Hey you know what, I have big problem with smoke. But i believe in freedom of choice, and my choices are limited, but ill be damned if i let that get in the way of letting others make their choices, and compromise, not self righteous snobbery, is the key to getting along".

Is there any chance you can do that? Why dont you try making friends with the smokers on this forum? If you try it, i promise to show you how much i believe in freedom and understanding by defending you when another smoker unfairly has a go at you, and i dont care how they see me. However if youre in the wrong ill have a go at you. Lets see how it goes. You might be pleasantly surprised.

Lilachamster has run away from this conversation. She pretended to be reasonable and now she has revealed her true colours as someone who is incapable of having a conversation. I tried, i tried so hard to meet her somewhere in the middle and she has kicked me in the teeth. I am not impressed.

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As you will be aware, the role of the admin and moderators on this forum is not only to moderate, but to act as referee in and sum up discussions. With that in mind,



Most discussions about the uk smoking ban result in a lot of animosity between those who differ in their views. This discussion has mostly been conducted relatively well, and it is clear that this is due to Leafar's efforts. Lilachamster has tto an extent responded positively to this, although her absence from this particular conversation in recent weeks may be an indication that she is not willing to reach an understanding. It can be hard to have a discussion with someone who has a very different view, however every effort was made to smooth the way.

Leafar showed a clear understanding of Lilachamster's personal concerns and addressed the wider issues of personal choice and compromise. Perhaps the discussion could have reached a more positive level if those issues had been properly dealt with.

Lilachamster obviously has a very personal reason to support the smoking ban, but again, there are wider aspects to the debate which were not dealt with.

Many questions which were raised by Leafar remain unanswered. And the attempt by Leafar to reach out to Lilachamster does not appear to be mutual. Lilachamster appears to be selective in her responses, and it is understandable when one considers that perhaps she feels attacked on all sides, however, this particular discussion was between the two of them only.

What is obvious is that sometimes when people feel strongly about an issue, it can affect how the debate is conducted.

The aim of this forum is for all views to be expressed. In this discussion, views have certainly been expressed but they have not been adequately dealt with and it appears to be due to Lilachamster's personal emotional response to the smoking ban and the issues which relate to her. Again this is understandable but the purpose here is to deal with all issues.

This thread is now closed. If either Lilacamster or Leafar would like to resume at some point, they are welcome to let me know.

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