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 Lets talk about ASH

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leafar



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PostSubject: Lets talk about ASH   Lets talk about ASH I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 13, 2009 10:01 am

Hmmm, lets talk about the "charity" ASH.

Antis, why dont you get the ball rolling.
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Lilachamster



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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk about ASH   Lets talk about ASH I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 13, 2009 4:43 pm

My only criticism of them is that they do not go far enough, they should stop pussyfooting around and call for smoking to be treated as an illegal class B drug, same as cannabis, or maybe even class A.
They should also be calling for social services to take children away from parents who smoke in their homes and cars with the children present.
ASH are a bit too moderate for me but the best we have I guess.
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s.sleuth



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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk about ASH   Lets talk about ASH I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 13, 2009 5:01 pm

They should also be calling for social services to take children away from parents who refuse to have their children vaccinated
Mother-of-two Lesley Dove, from Harrow, Middlesex, is refusing to have her children Jonathan and Aurora, treated with the MMR vaccine.


They should also be calling for social services to take children away from parents who smoke in their homes and cars with the children present.

Ms Dove said: "It is a matter of choice and letting parents make their own decisions.
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Lilachamster



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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk about ASH   Lets talk about ASH I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 13, 2009 5:22 pm

You cannot seriously compare not vaccinating because of worries about the poisons in vaccines to someone smoking around children (and not worrying at all about poisoning them), you have just stooped to a new low.
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Admin
Admin


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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk about ASH   Lets talk about ASH I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 13, 2009 5:24 pm

Can we please bring the discussion back on topic. This thread is specifically about A.S.H.

Thank you.
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Lilachamster



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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk about ASH   Lets talk about ASH I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 13, 2009 5:32 pm

Admin, is s.sleuth allowed to post up the information about me and my identity and email address?
Although I believe it is unlikely there will be any problems, I would rather not take the chance of having my identity continually plastered all over this forum.
s.sleuth knows who I am, I get the picture, but if anything happens to me at the hands of these anti-smoker-haters, you might get your cpmputer seized and be questioned as part of the police investigation. I am thinking that maybe you would rather save yourself that.
I am making sure that my husband knows about this forum so that he knows to suspect the smoking rights thugs if anything bad happens to me.
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Admin
Admin


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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk about ASH   Lets talk about ASH I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 13, 2009 6:38 pm

Lilachamster :

Please be aware that on this forum, as I have previously pointed out, admin generally (ie with exceptions) gives all posters the right to post anything they wish. However, if threads descend into chaos resulting from conflict between posters, I will begin removing posts in an attempt to restore order and remain on topic. If they do not descend into chaos, regardless of what is posted (again, with exceptions), I will leave posts as they are.

You have been made aware of this. As a result, it is your responsibility to choose whether or not to take part in this forum. I have allowed all posters a large degree of freedom of expression, and that freedom comes with personal responsibility.

However I have sent s.sleuth a private message regarding this matter.

Also, I will begin removing posts if the thread descends into chaos.

In the event that you choose to request that I remove you from this forum (which you have the freedom to do if you are uncomfortable), I will also remove all posts which contain your personal details, if I see them.

Also please be aware that the admin and moderators of this forum will not be threatened by any poster.

Thank you.




To all :

Please do not respond to this post on the thread. If anyone wishes to discuss the matter, please do so privately. All posts or parts of posts intended to respond to this post will be removed.


Thank you.
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soapy



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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk about ASH   Lets talk about ASH I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 13, 2009 7:20 pm

Lilachamster wrote:
My only criticism of them is that they do not go far enough, they should stop pussyfooting around and call for smoking to be treated as an illegal class B drug, same as cannabis, or maybe even class A.
They should also be calling for social services to take children away from parents who smoke in their homes and cars with the children present.
ASH are a bit too moderate for me but the best we have I guess.

Well, Lilachamster, that is definately an opinion!

Firstly could Iask if you are fully aware of the consequenses of criminalising tobacco?

Secondly are you aware of the great shortage of fostercarers within the state system?

What do we do with all of these children?

Are you aware that they are more likely to smoke in care than they are in their own homes or that the damage done to them by the forcible removal from loving homes would create more problems than it solves?

Who will pay for it all, especially with the loss of tobacco revenue after you have criminaliseed it?

Thirdly ASH moderate! are we seeing the same organisation here? Attila the Hun, Goth with his Vandals and Nero were more moderate than ASH! Even Herod would be hard pressed to claim extremeism by comparison.
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Admin
Admin


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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk about ASH   Lets talk about ASH I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 13, 2009 8:30 pm

To all :

I have reconsidered lilachamster's concerns and I have decided that from now on posters may not post email addresses or any other personal contact details of other posters on threads.

Everything else which I mentioned in my previous post still stands, ie freedom of expression, and no threats to the admin or moderators. Both are taken very seriously. Please take note of this.

I will remove posts or parts of posts which I see which refer to other posters' personal contact details. Please be aware of this and please adhere to this.

Lilachamster, please send me a private message to confirm that you have read and understood this post, in order to be able to continue on this forum.

If anyone sees their email address or other personal contact details posted on this forum, please inform me immediately.

Thank you.


Lilachamster, please check your inbox.
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hedgewitch



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PostSubject: ASH   Lets talk about ASH I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 14, 2009 2:09 am

ASH was originally founded as the litigation wing of the American anti-smoking movement. There wasn't really any anti-smoking sentiment in Britain at that time (late '60s), apart from a tiny non-smokers' alliance who were widely judged to be mentally unhinged.
When ASH was set up here in 1971, its principal aim was to destroy the social conventions around smoking. (This was to avoid treading on the toes of the Health Education Council, who felt they were responsible for health education.)
Throughout the 70s, despite a huge amount of government funding, much of it going on state-of-the-art advertising (Saatchi & Saatchi), ASH didn't really achieve much. Smoking rates at the end of the decade weren't much lower than at the beginning and quit-rates were in line with previously established patterns.
The real breakthrough for tobacco control was the concept of second hand smoke, which ASH pushed relentlessly.
Even so, twenty years down the line it was glaringly obvious that people still liked to smoke when they got together, especially in adult settings involving alcohol. Unable to stop smokers from social smoking by the power of persuasion, ASH turned to legislation and in this respect, as we all know, they were fantastically successful.
Having achieved what they set out to do (destroy social smoking), ASH should now gracefully disband. The fact that they have not suggests that they've extended their remit and as homes are practically the only place smokers have left in which to smoke in comfort, Lilachamster may well have the satisfaction of seeing millions of children forcibly removed from their smoking parents in the not too distant future.


Last edited by hedgewitch on Sat Mar 14, 2009 9:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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soapy



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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk about ASH   Lets talk about ASH I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 14, 2009 5:16 am

Thank you Hedgewitch for your analysis of ASH, of particular interest is your definition as to what ASH was designed to achieve in the UK which is certainly not the definition that appears on ASH's own website. I think on balance I prefer your definition as events have bourne it out due to ASH moving away from an 'educational role'.

Although you don't mention it I am sure you are aware of ASH's charitable status, I wonder if like myself you wonder if their charitable status is legitamate?
They act more like a government sponsered thinktank than a charity, it is certain that their input is considered policy as opposed to education by Her Majesties Government, I feel that under these circumstances they should have their charitable status revoked.

With regard to ASH gracefully disbanding that is not an option their higher echelons are making far too much in salary, they enjoy far too much power, and worse are still the same 'mentally unhinged breed' as the non-smokers alliance were way back in the 60's.
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Lilachamster



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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk about ASH   Lets talk about ASH I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 14, 2009 4:51 pm

Hedgewitch, why should children in their homes be the ones least protected from adults smoking? They cannot choose to get away from it the way an adult can in a pub.
I think smoking should have been banned around children long before it was banned in adult settings such as pubs, it makes a lot more sense to put that as the top priority, and on this I think ASH got their priorities totally the wrong way round.
Actually as an "anti" I would like some other antis to explain to me why it has happened the way it has, with children still exposed legally to smoke in cars which are very confined spaces (although in some countries this is illegal, we in the UK are behind on this).
While I am happy to feel mostly protected in public places, if I had had the choice between a ban in public places and a ban around children in houses and cars to be brought in in 2007, it's easy for me to say what I would choose, because I am not only interested in my own needs, but the needs of the most vulnerable above all.
I've lived a lot of my life avoiding pubs and other smoking allowed places, and would have traded the right to go in those places for increased protection for vulnerable children instead. After what I suffered as a child, with the constant illness from passive smoking, how could I choose any differently?
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leafar



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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk about ASH   Lets talk about ASH I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 14, 2009 4:53 pm

Yeah but what about ASH? Do you know anything about them? Youd be surprised at what there is to know.
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hedgewitch



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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk about ASH   Lets talk about ASH I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 15, 2009 2:55 am

leafar - I appreciate that you want to keep the topic on track, but I'd like to answer lilachampster's post.
Perhaps we could have another thread: Think of the Children?

Staying with the ASH theme, Lilachamster says, 'I would like some other antis to explain to me why it has happened the way it has.' As I pointed out in my previous reply, ASH's target was always social smoking. In a letter dated 5th. January 1971, John Dunswoody wrote of ASH, "Primarily the campaign will attempt to take the social cachet that surrounds smoking and turn it on its head."

This fairly limited remit was proposed to avoid offending the Health Education Council who, with good reason, saw themselves as primarily responsible for working with local authorities, government organisations, the service sector and so on. Things between the two organisations (ASH and the HEC) got a bit muddled later on, but I assume that the original ASH purpose was ingrained deeply enough to have taken precedence.
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